Joined by Joann Fletcher and Charles Pasternak

Bigna:

Charles: Some say that religion is a delusion, maligned not benign.  I find that arrogant as well as rubbish.  I hope by the end of the hour to bridge the gap between religious belief and science.  The brain speaks to the rest of the body and the same types of molecules operate in the one as in the other.  When you’re stressed, you experience physiological symptoms.  What I believe is that even belief will manifest themselves physically in the body.  Monks meditating experience increased temperature and decreased blood pressure.

C: If you believe strongly, you have the results physiologically.  Strong belief is a good, positive thing.

J: We can certainly project this back into Egyptian times.  There are many iconic elements within Egyptian culture, but in order to understand what made the Egyptian tick and how they accomplished pyramid building and mummification, we have to understand what their belief systems were.  The ultimate thing is their belief system that allowed them to achieve one of the most magnificent cultures that we know.   It’s an amazing culture to study.

B: The Egyptian art was subject to the practical immediately.

J:  They applied practicality to everything they did, but you can never detach the practical from the ritual with them.  But alongside the practical medical procedures, there was also heavy use of amulets and incantations.  While this may have been placebo, they still combined practical with the ritual.

C: But you can’t discount the placebo effect.  Religion is one of the greatest placebos there is.  It focuses belief to the point of affecting circumstances.

B: You’re traveled extensively.  When you’re studying ancient cultures on-site, can you see the evidence of ancient beliefs in the modern communities?

J: Oh yes, you can definitely see it.  You’re not supposed to say it, but Islam is a veneer in some areas that cover ancient Egyptian beliefs.

C: There’s something to that.  To have the great religions to have survived as long as they have, with successful people being among their believers, and to say they’re all delusional is rubbish.  It’s quite uncalled for with atheists to go on about it.

There are things we can’t explain with current scientific theories about the things we believe in that make us feel better.

B: A pluralism seems to be emerging in religions, maybe because of increased communication.  Does the pluralism make sense to you, is it beneficial?

C: My point early on about the benefit of belief is that it doesn’t actually matter what you believe in, as long as you believe in something very firmly.  There was a delightful book that came out some time back called “The Mapmaker’s Wife” about an expedition sent out to measure the circumference of the Earth and whether it was flatter at the equator than the poles.  To cut a long story short, the scientists went out and one of them married a Peruvian lady.  He left, she stayed behind.  It was a very difficult area to leave, but she eventually followed him, and while many of her companions died, she made it not because she had any particular religious belief, but because she believed she would make it.  In extreme circumstances, people revert to almost a prayer-like mentality.

B: It has been said that if you have a strong belief it must be fought over and defended.  Can there be agreement?

C: Consensus is probably the best that can be achieved.  We shouldn’t be dogmatic and there are doors we should leave open when we’re not sure.

Q: What do you believe are the things that are needed to combat fundamentalism?
A: (Charles) The trouble with fundamentalists that they disbelieve evidence in front of them.  The problem I think with Muslim fundamentalism is that don’t have a pope.  If they had a similar leader, they would be guided away from their negative behavior.  (Joann) Globally I think people should be more respected for their individual beliefs.  Established religions do kind of create religious strangleholds on women; voices need to be heard.

Q: I don’t really believe that meditation has to do with belief as Charles said.  I practice and for me its more about awareness.
A: You may be right.  One of the reasons I think Buddhism is so popular in the West is that it’s more philosophy than religion.  And if there’s so dogma, then there’s no real religious belief.

Q: The placebo effect is a misnomer and I think that we’re really talking about the power of the mind.  That’s what the scientists are really studying, not the power of belief.
A: I agree.  Maybe it should be called the power of the mind not the power of belief.

Q: This conference is about disruptive thinking, but in this hour, I haven’t really heard anything disruptive.
A: There is a disruption in that scientific theory is very objective and including individual beliefs is a breach.

Q: What’s Joann’s most disruptive belief about ancient cultures?
A: It’s not really a belief, it’s a fact, but in Egyptian culture this stranglehold of patriarchal domination and suppression of female roles in the culture.  There were at least 6 women that ruled ancient Egypt as pharaohs.

Q: Not really a question, just some disruptive thinking I’d like to share.  When you say power of belief vs. power of the mind, you’re just being confrontational and trying to dismiss something you don’t understand or can’t verify.
A: Brilliant, I thank you.

Q: I just wanted to ask about the discussion regarding women and I think the whole problem with most issues in the world has to do with men-women relations.  I don’t think it has to do with who has the power, but who has the motivation to put things into motion.
A: Excellent.